Curse

zwei2stein · Nov 02, 2007, 04:31 PM // 16:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

... This is much more of a general question as we all get familiar with the use of mods and the many things they can (and cannot) do. ...

People kinda did that already. Limits of texmods are generally known and were estimated to be harmless weeks (months?) ago.

* PvP exploitation: better radar, better ui. Not giving extra information but providing markers that make life easier. PvP Pros guaranteed that it wont give nonskilled players any measurable advantage simply because unskilled has a lot lesser worries than perfect information, and experiend no longer need it.

* PvE exploitation (ok, exploitation is not prolper name) provides the same: amount of work for *rational* cartographer is *unchanged* by mod. i personally know people who did trzrian cartographer in less than week simply because they learned how to all needed walhugging.

Most common misconception about carto title is that it is about discovering mission bits. Anyone havign their X-th cartographer will tell you that if you are hunting few left sports, you did it wrong since begining by not walhugging. THat title should kinda be about sightseeing, and going out there, dispatchign stuff on your way ... kinda vanquisher-lite.

Mod does not change reality of title: going out there, fighting monsters, hugging walls and doinf complete sweep of area.

What it prevents is "nonfun" part of title: map comparsions, waiting for reply on forums for tips, etc, re-hugging areas /people hate to repeat themselves ... /. They still have to scout information for accessing some specific areas.

Gist is: Lazy person with mod will NOT get title, simply because mods wont cut down amount of needed work.

Antheus · Nov 02, 2007, 04:36 PM // 16:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

The suggestion that the visual clarity/fog distinction capacity should get into the game is interesting. Have you ever wondered why we have a radar? For the very reason that people will create map hacks that give them an advantage so we've given everyone a level playing field with the radar. So I can understand the suggestion and it'll be interesting to see what the designers feel about that idea. (And they designers may not know if I don't point it out, so it's all good.)

The map reveal mechanics is in game already.

But since it wasn't designed for exploration from the start, it's very difficult to see where the boundaries lie.

The mod in question makes full and very creative use of everything that the game already provides, but eliminates the "annoyance" factor.

Even more, due to different gamma settings, monitor quality, graphic cards, eyesight and other factors, some areas are truly frustrating to explore. At best, this classifies as usability problem - it doesn't in any way change the mechanics of the title, doesn't give an advantage (maphack/wallhack), nor does it affect the difficulty of game (fighting through every inch of every continent).

Of all the "naked ranger", "transparent UIs", "rainbow colored xp bar" mods, this is one that truly adds value to gameplay - and it's not just a cheap hack. As it happens, it's of such high quality, that if included as-is, it could almost pass as official addition.

the_jos · Nov 02, 2007, 05:08 PM // 17:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Karyuu

@the_jos: There are many times where you think you hugged the walls all the way, and then you find out that you're stuck at 99.9% at the end and have no idea what you missed. Maybe you rushed in one tiny section, maybe you didn't push hard enough, etc. The point is that there is no definite way to know when you are finished exploring a zone until BOOM, you have 100% in the title. What would Vanquishing be like if you only got the title once you vanquished everything everywhere without that zone counter?

Well, that would be a true assumption if there was exactly 100% to be explored.
It's not one little area, it's a lot. For example Tyria: the lower part of Lornar's + some other spots. I've also seen maps with a huge part of the Fire Islands still covered.
It's not about a single tiny section, it's about a lot of them.
Further comments on this below.

Quote:

Originally Posted by HawkofStorm

BINGO! You know why people didn't take exploration seriously? BECAUSE TITLES WHERE ADDED 1 YEAR INTO THE GAME!

How the heck was I supposed to know when I beat Prophecies prior to Factions coming out that such a thing as an exploration title would exist? You are saying I wasn't commeted to getting a title before titles even existed. Why, that makes perfect sense to me /sarcasm

Guess what, all my main characters started playing before the titles were released.
It looked like and easy title to get and had proven to be a hard one.
Why? Because I underestimated it at first.

In Tyria, the main missions + bonus track would give you somewhere between 55 and 60%.
Walk around a little and you can get it to 80% easy.

My experience tells me that most people start working on their exploration title between 70 and 80%.
However, being at 80% would still mean revisiting about every area there is.

Now if you don't take exploring serious at that 80%, you are in trouble finding the last 0.5%. Even with the huge amount you don't have to explore to get GMC. That's because it's all tiny little fragments over the map.
Something someone could have easily avoided when he/she started hugging the map from the start.

If you look at the frequently missed Tyrian spots posting, you notice most are right off the beaten track. There are only a few that require some kind of trick.
They cover between 1 and 2% of the map.
It's those kinds of spot that make the title hard to get and that has everything to do with dedication.
You would probably not have explored them if you were not working on the title and when you were working on the title, you did it wrong.
There can be a few exceptions (people who enjoyed the scenery) but those would be a minority.

Keithark · Nov 02, 2007, 05:15 PM // 17:15

Where is this mod?? I have searched (maybe wrong threads or something) but cannot find a mod for download. I have no computer knowledge so would I even be able to use it? I have 98.3%, 98.7%, and 99.1% (in order of release) on the 3 chapters and cannot see anywhere I have missed so would love to finally be able to complete the titles.

Devronius · Nov 02, 2007, 05:31 PM // 17:31

There's a link to the page on the first page of this thread. You can find the mods on GuildWiki.

sykoone · Nov 02, 2007, 05:31 PM // 17:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keithark

Where is this mod?? I have searched (maybe wrong threads or something) but cannot find a mod for download.

The mod itself is on the wiki's player made modification page, found here. Texmod, which is required to run the mod is linked from this page.

This links are all through the official wiki, due to the policy set in place by the originators of the modding page. If you have any questions, feel free to pm me.

Torqual · Nov 02, 2007, 05:32 PM // 17:32

The above post demonstrates perfectly why the 'cartography made easy' layer should be implemented in the standard GW client, and not just a tool of 'the modding community'.

Here's a link for you. It appears I have now become Head of Sales for the 'Cartography made easy" mod.

http://www.wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/G..._modifications

There are a couple of mods fairly early on in the page.

Good luck finishing your titles!

Bryant Again · Nov 02, 2007, 05:33 PM // 17:33

Here's a big list of mods if you're interested, Skyoone:

http://guildwarsguru.com/forum/showt...php?t=10208601

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antheus

Even more, due to different gamma settings, monitor quality, graphic cards, eyesight and other factors, some areas are truly frustrating to explore.

Case in point: Echovald Forest.

Karyuu · Nov 02, 2007, 05:51 PM // 17:51

@the_jos: The sheer number of people who struggle with this title and who have asked for advice and help on various boards, shows that players who get 100% without some difficulty are very rare. If your players are struggling and its primarily due to visuals and being unable to tell what tiny percentage you might have missed, I think some reevaluation is in order. And face it, there are plenty of opportunities for you to not wall-hug closely enough. You run instead of walk for a split second and a portion of the fog remains. Have this compound over a couple of zones, and you might very well discover yourself missing .1% by the end and without any idea where that last bit might be. "I'm going to revisit every zone" isn't an option, and neither is "I'm going to just stare at the fog and try to figure out where that fog shouldn't be."

It's very easy to find yourself with portions still fogged, and much harder to find out where to clear it at the end, if you don't do some map comparisons or change that dang fog.

Torqual · Nov 02, 2007, 05:51 PM // 17:51

Echovald and Jade were the worst. Also anything with sea on the edge of it, so some bits of Kaineng. Impossible to see where unfogging was required, so complete shoulder-scrape used taking hours. I hated it, but I will never have to do it again. On reflection, it's the never having to do it again that is the best bit.

Very true what Karyuu says also....without mod you need to GO SLOW otherwise you can miss hitting a pinpoint due to server lag.... and never know it.

Mordakai · Nov 02, 2007, 06:12 PM // 18:12

The argument that titles are supposed to be hard is fine. But even the most difficult titles tell you what you need in order to finish it (ie, one more Elite skill, one more mission completed, etc).

Cartography is unique in my mind because it is so hard to tell what areas need to be "explored." As many have pointed out, it is not always obvious, and there is no list of skills or mission map to refer to to quickly determine what are you missed!

Karyuu · Nov 02, 2007, 06:14 PM // 18:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mordakai

The argument that titles are supposed to be hard is fine. But even the most difficult titles tell you what you need in order to finish it (ie, one more Elite skill, one more mission completed, etc).

Possibly the best and most precise summary of what I was trying to say. Thank you

... And don't anybody reply with "ie, one more percent"! With the other examples, you have a very easy way of finding out where to go to complete that title. When it comes to your own personal map, good luck!

freekedoutfish · Nov 02, 2007, 06:27 PM // 18:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Karyuu

@the_jos: The sheer number of people who struggle with this title and who have asked for advice and help on various boards, shows that players who get 100% without some difficulty are very rare.

Your assuming that ...

1) 100% of GWs players post on the guru.
2)100% of players have posted their opinions in this thread.

...now I think its far to say both arent true! You cant come to a conclusion that because the majority of posters in this thread seem to be having exploration issues, that the same can be said for the ENTIRE guild wars community.

Obviously if someone posts a thread concerning the bad sides to exploration, you are going to get a everyone who agrees crawling out the wood-work to /sign it. Its also obvious that the majority of posts are going to be along the lines of "I hate exploration, its too hard, make it easier" in a thread like this.

That is no reflection on the opinion of everyone in the entire game. There are going to be 1000s of players who have no problems exploring, who dont even read the guru, while others dont bother posting because they managed fine.

Please dont make comments suggesting that one thread, speaks for the entire views of all guild wars players. They dont all post in here and we're probably the minority who do.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mordakai

The argument that titles are supposed to be hard is fine. But even the most difficult titles tell you what you need in order to finish it (ie, one more Elite skill, one more mission completed, etc).

Cartography is unique in my mind because it is so hard to tell what areas need to be "explored." As many have pointed out, it is not always obvious, and there is no list of skills or mission map to refer to to quickly determine what are you missed!

Is there something wrong with having atleast one title which requires your complete inititive to achieve? Without any help or advice?

Fried Tech · Nov 02, 2007, 06:30 PM // 18:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

I would suggest that you reread and understand something. There's very little position-taking in my comments.

your right, you cant take a position if you dont know anything....jk

sykoone · Nov 02, 2007, 06:35 PM // 18:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

Here's a big list of mods if you're interested, Skyoone:

I'm aware of the list. All it is, though, is a mirror of the link I posted. Since hosting the index on the wiki requires you to have all mod links on that page, rather than on user pages, I tend to point to that one anytime I link, rather than to my talk page on the mod, which can be found here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Torqual

It appears I have now become Head of Sales for the 'Cartography made easy" mod.

You pretty much have. We've had more downloads of the Tyria/Gwen mod since you started this post than in the first month of its release. It's the most popular by far of the three campaigns.

Bryant Again · Nov 02, 2007, 07:00 PM // 19:00

I'm actually going to agree with Karyuu there, Freeked. I *highly* doubt that some person getting this on their first try without any assistance at all is not going to get it complete.

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

Its also obvious that the majority of posts are going to be along the lines of "I hate exploration, its too hard, make it easier" in a thread like this.

Again. I wouldn't call wall-hugging in a forced 45-degree angle 95% of the time "exploring".

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

Is there something wrong with having atleast one title which requires your complete inititive to achieve? Without any help or advice?

Is there something wrong with having any help at all for a title? And that's not so much Mordakai's point, anyways.

YunSooJin · Nov 02, 2007, 07:13 PM // 19:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fried Tech

your right, you cant take a position if you dont know anything....jk

LOL 123456789

Karyuu · Nov 02, 2007, 07:15 PM // 19:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

Your assuming that ...

1) 100% of GWs players post on the guru.
2)100% of players have posted their opinions in this thread.

We've posted in other threads before, you and I, where we both argued that point - that GWG is not a fair representative of the community. However, I wasn't going off of GWG alone. I visit other forums as well, I have friends who don't post anywhere, and if a subject truly interests me then I actually Google for more info, stumbling onto blogs, webpages, etc. The amount of people who have difficulty with the cartographer title outweighs those who consider it easy, and use no comparisons of any sort with completed maps of others.

Quote:

You cant come to a conclusion that because the majority of posters in this thread seem to be having exploration issues, that the same can be said for the ENTIRE guild wars community.

Did you notice how many help requests for Cartography are in this entire forum alone, not just this single thread? And how absolutely large some of those other threads have become?

Quote:

Its also obvious that the majority of posts are going to be along the lines of "I hate exploration, its too hard, make it easier" in a thread like this.

But instead, "The fog is really difficult to distinguish from the actual map sometimes, and ends up being a strain on the eyes. Please consider tweaking the system."

Quote:

Please dont make comments suggesting that one thread, speaks for the entire views of all guild wars players.

When did I do that? Please don't put words in my mouth either.

Consider something that I posted earlier:

Strictly from a design standpoint, if something as simple as a color change greatly increases the efficiency of an activity, the original might not have been the best choice.

lakatz · Nov 02, 2007, 07:28 PM // 19:28

Yeah it's unfair and cheating! And it's unfair and cheating to early man that we make fire with matches now instead of sticks... electric matches no less... wtf is this world coming to???

I propose we stop progress NOW!

EDIT: Btw, I got my Legendary Grandmaster Cartographer using Photoshop. And I don't for a second begrudge the invention of the texmod tool or it's use since. Kudos to the guy who figured this one out.

puffzilla · Nov 02, 2007, 07:39 PM // 19:39

Once you have a set of screen captures of 100% complete there isn't any reason you shouldn't be able to find the missing spots easily. I've analyzed maps for a lot of guildies. Using XP default ImageViewer and comparing 2 maps is so easy. This is just a slightly easier in game verson of the same thing. But if someone takes 5 minutes to read about the file compare then they'll find out this is pretty much a no brainer title.

I haven't shown my legendary carto title much anyways. And I for one don't really care if other use it. It won't make me think any differently about my title.